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Thread: Got the new system and used it for the first time last night.

  1. #1
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    Got the new system and used it for the first time last night.

    I put the new system to use last night and with only one hiccup, it sounded great. The hiccup was with the Bluetooth transmitter and receivers. I believe that if I were to just use it for DJ gigs, it would have worked out fine but the live vocals were not in sync with the music and that had nothing to do with the singer not being able to keep up with the onscreen lyrics. If you were looking at the singer's mouth, you would have been able to tell that their voice was coming out of the speakers after the singer sang them instead of at the moment the words were uttered. The audio after I switched to cables between the mixer and the speakers was flawless. I didn't have to deal with the main EQ even once because there was no feedback, comfirming my theory that the line array speaker was too short and that was why I couldn't turn it up enough for the back of the room to hear what was coming out of the system. Even the house speakers were too low.
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  2. #2
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    I think that I got the Bluetooth situation worked out. At home I didn't have the problem with the vocals that I did at the bar but at home I was treating the receivers as separate units. The transmitter allows me to pair to two separate devices and that is what I did at home. At the bar I was treating both receivers as the same device by pairing one receiver with the transmitter and trying to use the Stereo pairing in the receivers.
    Windows 10 Home
    Siglos Karaoke Professional
    Mixx DJ software.
    HP Red Flyer laptop
    Sennheiser XSW 1-835 Dual Mic System
    Berhinger Ultralink ULM202USB wireless mics
    Behringer QX1222USB mixer
    EV ZXA1 speakers
    Ultimate Support T100B speaker stands
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  3. #3
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    Bluetooth is NOT the solution for live singing. There is an inherent latency on the order of 200-400 ms for a BT connection as opposed to a wired connection of around 30-50ms. 40ms and under is the threshold you want for anything "live" .. Not going to do that with BT..
    Steve Montambault, Copper Sound
    Audio - Rane MP25, A&H ZED12FX, Denon MC6000mk2, Denon DN-HC4500, JBL PRX612m, RCF EVOX 8

  4. #4
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    At home treating each receiver as separate devices, the vocals came out exactly how it came out when the cables we're being used so I don't accept your information being accurate. I believe that it is possible to use bluetooth or why would several manufacturers design their speakers with the capability. I didn't have the issue with my line array system and the Bluetooth receiver was built in and I had the transmitter attached to the Bose master output with both music and vocals going through the transmitter.
    Windows 10 Home
    Siglos Karaoke Professional
    Mixx DJ software.
    HP Red Flyer laptop
    Sennheiser XSW 1-835 Dual Mic System
    Berhinger Ultralink ULM202USB wireless mics
    Behringer QX1222USB mixer
    EV ZXA1 speakers
    Ultimate Support T100B speaker stands
    Mixer bag

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyG2001 View Post
    At home treating each receiver as separate devices, the vocals came out exactly how it came out when the cables we're being used so I don't accept your information being accurate. I believe that it is possible to use bluetooth or why would several manufacturers design their speakers with the capability. I didn't have the issue with my line array system and the Bluetooth receiver was built in and I had the transmitter attached to the Bose master output with both music and vocals going through the transmitter.
    BT is fine for pre-recorded music .. the lag wouldn't be noticed.

    There are some newer BT audio standards like aptX that cuts it down significantly. Maybe your devices have it but it only works when used in the way you did at home. Either way, there will be some latency with lower end digital units.

    Here are some of the aptX enabled devices: https://www.aptx.com/products?field_...tegory_tid=128
    Steve Montambault, Copper Sound
    Audio - Rane MP25, A&H ZED12FX, Denon MC6000mk2, Denon DN-HC4500, JBL PRX612m, RCF EVOX 8

  6. #6
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    Danny, Steve is mostly correct. Bluetooth latency is terrible and it changes. But I only spent 5 years selling Bluetooth audio analyzers to audio manufacturers, so maybe you should reject my information as well. The latency for a stereo connection (A2DP profile) typically is in the 100-150 ms range. Singers typically cannot tolerate latencies of only 10 ms if using in-ear monitors. The AptX low latency profile (if both transmitter and receiver are so equipped) can bring that latency down to about 40 ms. This is about the delay where people start complaining about lip-sync issues when watching television.

    Manufacturers include BT because people enjoy streaming music, not because it is a good idea. In fact, most BT connections are absolutely terrible. The SBC codec used in the A2DP profile is a about 1/3 the data rate of a standard CD. The signal-to-noise ratio is about 70 dB or 1000x worse than an average sound system (100 dB SNR). Also, the SBC codec is known for adding spurious tones to the transmitted material.
    The No-Hype DJ:
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust123 View Post
    Danny, Steve is mostly correct. Bluetooth latency is terrible and it changes. But I only spent 5 years selling Bluetooth audio analyzers to audio manufacturers, so maybe you should reject my information as well. The latency for a stereo connection (A2DP profile) typically is in the 100-150 ms range. Singers typically cannot tolerate latencies of only 10 ms if using in-ear monitors. The AptX low latency profile (if both transmitter and receiver are so equipped) can bring that latency down to about 40 ms. This is about the delay where people start complaining about lip-sync issues when watching television.

    Manufacturers include BT because people enjoy streaming music, not because it is a good idea. In fact, most BT connections are absolutely terrible. The SBC codec used in the A2DP profile is a about 1/3 the data rate of a standard CD. The signal-to-noise ratio is about 70 dB or 1000x worse than an average sound system (100 dB SNR). Also, the SBC codec is known for adding spurious tones to the transmitted material.
    You said it much better ..
    Steve Montambault, Copper Sound
    Audio - Rane MP25, A&H ZED12FX, Denon MC6000mk2, Denon DN-HC4500, JBL PRX612m, RCF EVOX 8

  8. #8
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    The transmitter is made by MME while the receivers are made by Alto. And I was singing at home. All the settings were the same as the bar except for how I paired up the receivers with the transmitter. I looked through the list and I believe that it's incomplete in the devices because neither brands are in the list.
    Windows 10 Home
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    EV ZXA1 speakers
    Ultimate Support T100B speaker stands
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyG2001 View Post
    The transmitter is made by MME while the receivers are made by Alto. And I was singing at home. All the settings were the same as the bar except for how I paired up the receivers with the transmitter. I looked through the list and I believe that it's incomplete in the devices because neither brands are in the list.
    The Alto Bluetooth Total does NOT use the low latency protocol (AptX) .. it uses the older A2DP protocol. Even if the transmitter did, both sides have to or it reverts to the A2DP.

    Again, for music playback .. no issues either way .. live vocals are different. Without it, the latency is probably a summation of a number of things and there is probably background noise in the 2.4GHz spectrum that might cause more processing in a public space since it is competing with WiFI, phones and a number of other things running in that band.
    Steve Montambault, Copper Sound
    Audio - Rane MP25, A&H ZED12FX, Denon MC6000mk2, Denon DN-HC4500, JBL PRX612m, RCF EVOX 8

  10. #10
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    Again your claims are bogus. There is WiFi in use at home, my cell when at home is always connected to that wifi as well as two Chromecast devices and the laptop. It worked perfectly fine with those conditions. I see no reason why if I use the exact same methods that I used at home at the bar.
    Windows 10 Home
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    Mixx DJ software.
    HP Red Flyer laptop
    Sennheiser XSW 1-835 Dual Mic System
    Berhinger Ultralink ULM202USB wireless mics
    Behringer QX1222USB mixer
    EV ZXA1 speakers
    Ultimate Support T100B speaker stands
    Mixer bag

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyG2001 View Post
    Again your claims are bogus. There is WiFi in use at home, my cell when at home is always connected to that wifi as well as two Chromecast devices and the laptop. It worked perfectly fine with those conditions. I see no reason why if I use the exact same methods that I used at home at the bar.
    Your home IS NOT the same as where you played, so unless you know what 2.4GHz gear was being used, you have no idea. 2.4GHz interference could come from a lot of sources including microwave ovens, WiFI and repeaters/access points ... AND .. other phones Bluetooth (probably the biggie). And if this bar was near the Palace, there could be other local signals as well.

    When a BT pair gets interfered, it constantly resends data and THAT can cause delay/latency .. just saying it's more likely in a restaurant/bar than at home ..

    The Alto unit does not support low latency reception, so may be more susceptible to those interfering signals ..
    Steve Montambault, Copper Sound
    Audio - Rane MP25, A&H ZED12FX, Denon MC6000mk2, Denon DN-HC4500, JBL PRX612m, RCF EVOX 8

  12. #12
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    I live in a Seven story apartment building. When I reconnect my phone to my WiFi, there are multiple access points that come up to choose from.
    Windows 10 Home
    Siglos Karaoke Professional
    Mixx DJ software.
    HP Red Flyer laptop
    Sennheiser XSW 1-835 Dual Mic System
    Berhinger Ultralink ULM202USB wireless mics
    Behringer QX1222USB mixer
    EV ZXA1 speakers
    Ultimate Support T100B speaker stands
    Mixer bag

  13. #13
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    So Danny, you are arguing that two degreed engineers (Steve and I) that have a technical understanding Bluetooth are trumped by your anecdotal tests at home. Got it. Ignorance sure is bliss.

    Most BT connections are class 2 which is rated at 33' (10 meters) range. In your apartment building you will have only a handful of apartments with devices in that 33' range of your speaker. In a bar with 100s of patrons and staff, you can assume each has a phone with a BT transmitter within that range. That is much higher interference than your apt building.
    The No-Hype DJ:
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  14. #14
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    No, I am going to believe it when I actually see it, until then what you guys are saying is considered opinion only. Possibly one that is being generated out of paranoia over the chance that I might be able to use it to take shows away from one of you. I can assure you that I am not going to be doing that because while I may contact venues that already have shows out of not knowing that they have it, I back off the second they inform me that they already do.
    Windows 10 Home
    Siglos Karaoke Professional
    Mixx DJ software.
    HP Red Flyer laptop
    Sennheiser XSW 1-835 Dual Mic System
    Berhinger Ultralink ULM202USB wireless mics
    Behringer QX1222USB mixer
    EV ZXA1 speakers
    Ultimate Support T100B speaker stands
    Mixer bag

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyG2001 View Post
    No, I am going to believe it when I actually see it, until then what you guys are saying is considered opinion only. Possibly one that is being generated out of paranoia over the chance that I might be able to use it to take shows away from one of you. I can assure you that I am not going to be doing that because while I may contact venues that already have shows out of not knowing that they have it, I back off the second they inform me that they already do.
    Yea, that's the reason .. "paranoia". Sawdust lives on the other coast and frankly I have zero desire for karaoke shows in Waterbury.
    Steve Montambault, Copper Sound
    Audio - Rane MP25, A&H ZED12FX, Denon MC6000mk2, Denon DN-HC4500, JBL PRX612m, RCF EVOX 8

  16. #16
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    I have to ask Danny, do you wear a tinfoil hat? I can assure you that I am all but retired from DJing, never once KJed and have no interest in competing with you.

    I just happen to be an electrical engineer that works in the audio industry selling test equipment to all the major (and most minor) manufacturers for the last 15 years. I lecture around the world on topics related to audio test and measurement. I write articles for industry magazines aimed at design engineers too. I am a past governor and VP of the 14,000 member international Audio Engineering Society. I also sit on several audio standards committees within the Consumer Technology Association and chair one of their working groups. It is really amazing that I am able to successfully BS my way past all these audiences and that you and only you can see through that BS. You are so right not to trust a word I say.
    The No-Hype DJ:
    When you can't afford the best...
    I'm one of the rest.

  17. #17
    So how does any of that make you an expert? Just kidding!!!


    I have watched this person go through all of this with every piece of crappy gear he buys. Every time much more knowledgeable people give real world experience he tells them they are wrong and stays his path. A month later back on here saying that it did not work and asking for opinions again which are then ignored AGAIN. He is is a vicious cycle of ignorance
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust123 View Post
    I have to ask Danny, do you wear a tinfoil hat? I can assure you that I am all but retired from DJing, never once KJed and have no interest in competing with you.

    I just happen to be an electrical engineer that works in the audio industry selling test equipment to all the major (and most minor) manufacturers for the last 15 years. I lecture around the world on topics related to audio test and measurement. I write articles for industry magazines aimed at design engineers too. I am a past governor and VP of the 14,000 member international Audio Engineering Society. I also sit on several audio standards committees within the Consumer Technology Association and chair one of their working groups. It is really amazing that I am able to successfully BS my way past all these audiences and that you and only you can see through that BS. You are so right not to trust a word I say.
    You left out how it all got started

    http://www.dummies.com/education/sci...f-electricity/
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by partyman View Post
    So how does any of that make you an expert? Just kidding!!!


    I have watched this person go through all of this with every piece of crappy gear he buys. Every time much more knowledgeable people give real world experience he tells them they are wrong and stays his path. A month later back on here saying that it did not work and asking for opinions again which are then ignored AGAIN. He is is a vicious cycle of ignorance
    For your information, the only piece of equipment that I ever bought that was crappy in over 20 years of experience was the Musysic Amplifier but to be fair it came to me dead on arrival so I really didn't get a real chance to make a real judgement on it. The JBL Eon One speaker system was just not tall enough to be able to be used for what I wanted it to be used for. I am not an equipment snob. I don't make judgements based on the you get what you pay for BS that most of you spout. I let the actual equipment make my decision on what is good and what is crap. I am one who actually thinks that the Shure SM58'S and the Beta58's are not good enough for me to use. I would rather use my old Rockvilles over any Shure product because the vocals sound better. The only mics in my opinion that beat the Rockvilles are my Sennheisers.
    Windows 10 Home
    Siglos Karaoke Professional
    Mixx DJ software.
    HP Red Flyer laptop
    Sennheiser XSW 1-835 Dual Mic System
    Berhinger Ultralink ULM202USB wireless mics
    Behringer QX1222USB mixer
    EV ZXA1 speakers
    Ultimate Support T100B speaker stands
    Mixer bag

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyG2001 View Post
    For your information, the only piece of equipment that I ever bought that was crappy in over 20 years of experience was the Musysic Amplifier but to be fair it came to me dead on arrival so I really didn't get a real chance to make a real judgement on it. The JBL Eon One speaker system was just not tall enough to be able to be used for what I wanted it to be used for. I am not an equipment snob. I don't make judgements based on the you get what you pay for BS that most of you spout. I let the actual equipment make my decision on what is good and what is crap. I am one who actually thinks that the Shure SM58'S and the Beta58's are not good enough for me to use. I would rather use my old Rockvilles over any Shure product because the vocals sound better. The only mics in my opinion that beat the Rockvilles are my Sennheisers.
    Perhaps you need a visit to an audiologist?
    Steve Montambault, Copper Sound
    Audio - Rane MP25, A&H ZED12FX, Denon MC6000mk2, Denon DN-HC4500, JBL PRX612m, RCF EVOX 8

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